"...it's the result of a work, so that one may boast."(Is that Eph. 2:9?)

Two days ago, I arrived late into James White's chatroom where I stumbled upon a debate that was already in progress. Later, I got the record of the debate and read it through. I thought it would be helpful to post here because I believe it clearly shows the problem with the non-predestinarian view of salvation. To remain consistent in a non-predestinarian/free-will view, it never fails that one has to ultimately give credit to themselves in order to remain consistent with their belief. Read this little debate through, and notice how, when asked the deciding question directly, the free-will proponent had to dodge it relentlessly until he involuntarily has to concede the point at the end. I believe this is one of the clearest examples of why the predestinarian has no room to boast while the free-willer does.

[Apollos] lovetruth: I assume from your comments that you don't believe that God elects those whom he will save, prior to time ?
[lovetruth] There is no elect group in the bible [ordained to salvation)
[Apollos] Lovetruth: are you a christian ?
[lovetruth] Definitely a Christian: Jesus is my Lord and Saviour
[Apollos] Ok
[Apollos] lovetruth: and how are you saved as a Christian ?
[lovetruth] Jesus pais for all by his blood
[lovetruth] paid*
[Apollos] but I mean
[Apollos] what did you contribute ?
[lovetruth] nothing I do can pay for my salvation: Jesus did it all
[Apollos] lovetruth: do you have any friends or family members who are not saved ?
[lovetruth] Apollos, Yes I have family members who do not know the Lord
[Apollos] lovetruth: can you give me the first name of one of them who is not saved, for the sake of clarity ?
[Apollos] lovetruth: can you tell me the first name of one of your unsaved family members ?
[lovetruth] Apollos: Jean
[Apollos] lovetruth: thanks. Now can you tell me why you are saved and Jean is not ?
[lovetruth] I received Him as per John 1:12
[Apollos] lovetruth: OK. But why are you saved, and Jean is not ?
[lovetruth] Becos God has paid for it all
[Apollos] I am not understanding
[Apollos] If God paid for it all, then wouldn't Jean be saved as well ?
[lovetruth] And I received the light as per John 1:9
[Apollos] So why is Jean not saved ?
[lovetruth] No, becos he has not receive Him yet
[Apollos] Ok. So why have you received Jesus, and Jean has not ?
[lovetruth] Note the cause and effect in John 1:12
[lovetruth] the receiving comes before the authority to become children of God
[lovetruth] Calvis believe the authrority came 1st
[lovetruth] I am
[Apollos] Lovetruth: I am asking you very simply, why have you recieved Jesus, but Jean has not ]?
[lovetruth] :)
[lovetruth] Becos the life in me from God enabled me to decide: to say yes
[Apollos] Okl
[lovetruth] and this life [extent) is in all as per the Ss
[Apollos] So why did the life from God enable you to decide to say yes, but it did not do the same for Jean ?
[lovetruth] See Eccl 12:7 [I think)
[lovetruth] Becos he is not using it for that
[Apollos] Why not ?
[Apollos] Why are you using it for that, but Jean is not ?
[lovetruth] As per Matthew 13:12
[lovetruth] We all have
[Apollos] ~nas Matt 13:12
[@Gutenberg^] Matthew 13:12 "For whoever has, to him [more] shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. [NASB)
[lovetruth] but I use my have
[lovetruth] he does not
[Apollos] So are you saying that Jean has not been given ?
[lovetruth] I have just said he has and we all have
[Apollos] So why are you using it and Jean is not ?
[lovetruth] but he has not used his to have more
[Apollos] that is what I am asking
[Apollos] I understand that he hasn't
[Apollos] the question is Why ?
[lovetruth] No, he has
[lovetruth] otherwise it could nto be taken from him
[Apollos] Why are you using what you have been given, but Jean is not ?
[lovetruth] becos I want righteousness
[Apollos] Ok
[Apollos] So you are morally superior to Jean ?
[Apollos] that is why you are saved ?
[lovetruth] becos we all can, but we don't all want to
[lovetruth] nope not superior
[Apollos] So you are saying that you were saved because you are morally superior ?
[lovetruth] since we all have
[Apollos] Well you say that you desire righteousness
[Apollos] and he does not
[Apollos] doesn't that make you morally superior ?
[lovetruth] as testified by thefruit
[Apollos] we need not go there
[lovetruth] Jesus' righteousness makes me clean
[Apollos] I am simply asking why you are saved
[Apollos] and you are saying that it is because you desire righteousness
[Apollos] and Jean does not
[Apollos] so you are essentially morally superior to Jean
[Apollos] that is why you are saved and Jean is not
[Apollos] correct?
[Apollos] Because you have the moral drive and he does not ?
[lovetruth] Is desiring righteousness morally superior than desiring sin?
[lovetruth] or just a choice
[lovetruth] with no superior element in the making?
[Apollos] what do you thinl ?
[Apollos] is it better to desire sin or righteousness ?
[Apollos] think
[lovetruth] I think it is better, of course
[lovetruth] Jean does not, at this time
[Apollos] beacuse ?
[Apollos] you are just morally ahead of him ?
[Apollos] you are smarter than him ?
[Apollos] why is it ?
[lovetruth] neither
[lovetruth] a choice is neutral
[lovetruth] its effects are not
[Apollos] I am trying to understand what it is about you that Christ chose
[Apollos] that Jean doesn't have
[Apollos] what is it that makes you a more desireable choice to Christ ?
[lovetruth] that's the deal Christ desires all and paid for all
[Apollos] So why isn't Jean saved ?
[lovetruth] beocs he loves sin
[Apollos] I understand that
[Apollos] You have said that
[lovetruth] as per John 3:18
[lovetruth] is it what the bible says
[Apollos] yes
[lovetruth] Calvis say no it is God
[Apollos] but the question again is
[Apollos] Why do you not love sin, and Jean does ?
[Apollos] I am just trying to get to the root
[lovetruth] My flesh loves sin
[Apollos] yes
[lovetruth] but I do not want sin
[Apollos] ok
[Apollos] but Jean does
[lovetruth] I want life
[Apollos] and the question is why ?
[Apollos] why the difference between you
[Apollos] you don't seem to want to answer that
[lovetruth] choice
[Apollos] Ok so its not by grace
[lovetruth] you don't seem to hear that
[Apollos] its by choice
[lovetruth] yes, Jesus' grace
[Apollos] You told me earlier you were saved by grace
[lovetruth] and payment
[lovetruth] is what pays for all
[Apollos] now you are saying that you are saved because you made a choice
[Apollos] a choice that Jean did not make
[Apollos] and I am trying to understand from you
[Apollos] Why it is that you made that choice and Jean did not
[lovetruth] I made choice that Jesus paid for by God's grace
[Apollos] You keep saying the same thing
[Apollos] without answering the question
[Apollos] let me clarify
[Apollos] I understand that
[Apollos] 1) You chose Jesus and Jea did not
[Apollos] 2) You love righteousness and Jean does not
[lovetruth] Where does the bible say that God makes that decidion for me?
[lovetruth] decision*
[Apollos] 3) You want life, Jean does not
[Apollos] the question is
[Apollos] Why ?
[Apollos] Why the diference
[lovetruth] please answer my question
[Apollos] I understand there is a difference, you have been very clear about that
[Apollos] but what you have not answered
[Apollos] is why the difference
[Apollos] You indicated that you were more moral
[Apollos] than Jean
[lovetruth] No, you indoacted I was more moral
[Apollos] Ok
[Apollos] So please explain why the differences
[lovetruth] I inidcated that the choice was neutral
[lovetruth] its effects were not
[Apollos] why the differences ?
[Apollos] Why have you chosen a path, with all that entails
[Apollos] that Jean has not
[Apollos] Why have you made a decision that Jean has not ?
[Apollos] with all that entails
[lovetruth] Apllos: becos God saw the love I had for Him in my hear and I did not know it
[lovetruth] heart*
[lovetruth] So he set me up
[lovetruth] to a call
[Apollos] again Love truth
[lovetruth] And I then prayed to Jesus
[Apollos] your are going back to what is entailed
[Apollos] You love God , Jean does not
[Apollos] You prayed to Jesus, Jean did not
[Apollos] WHY ?
[lovetruth] I think [I know?) you misunderstand
[Apollos] I don't misunderstand
[Apollos] You are simply giving me a list of distinctions between a believer and an unbeliever
[Apollos] I understand that these distinctions exist
[Apollos] the question is Why you and not Jean ?
[Apollos] Is it something that you conjured up within yourself that Jean did not ?
[Apollos] something you did that made you more fitting to be saved than Jean
[Apollos] what is it ?
[lovetruth] Apollos, u misunderstand, as per Romans 8:27 I did not know what I wanted
[lovetruth] But God saw I love him in my heart of hearts
[lovetruth] ansd set me up to hear about Jesus as a consequence
[lovetruth] that is the conditional predestination Paul teaches
[Apollos] I see
[Apollos] so you had love for God in your heart, without knowing it
[Apollos] kind of an involuntary love
[Apollos] and Jean didn't have that involuntary love
[Apollos] So where did this involuntary love come from
[lovetruth] It is as per John 1:12 not a wholly conscious deal
[Apollos] since it did not originate with you ?
[lovetruth] as per JOhn 3:8
[lovetruth] being obrn of the SPirt is not a wholly conscious evetm
[Apollos] So you were born of the Spirit without knowing it ?
[lovetruth] becos it is like the wind Jesus aid
[Apollos] ok
[Apollos] I agree
[lovetruth] remember?
[Apollos] So really
[Apollos] The Spirit chose you
[Apollos] and you did not even know it
[lovetruth] God chose no one to be lost, so no
[Apollos] So
[Apollos] The Spirit of God chose you
[Apollos] But did not choose Jean
[Apollos] at least not yet
[Apollos] Which is why you are saved now
[Apollos] and he is not
[Apollos] right ?
[lovetruth] if u read me, u would know the answer
[Apollos] I just read you
[lovetruth] but u are fixed in your ways
[Apollos] You have no response
[lovetruth] and carry on irrespective
[Apollos] as to why you are saved and Jean is not
[Apollos] you can name off a dozen difference
[Apollos] but the only answer you have
[Apollos] is actually biblical
[Apollos] the Spirit goes where it pleases
[Apollos] and the Spirit regenerated your heart
[lovetruth] I choose for life becos God enalbes us all to choose
[lovetruth] the choice is neutral
[lovetruth] I have said that
[Apollos] but did not regenerate Genes
[Apollos] Jeans
[lovetruth] now please read me
[Apollos] I have been reading you
[lovetruth] but not hearing
[Apollos] you are now going back on what you said about the passage in John 3
[Apollos] Either the Spirit goes where it wishes
[Apollos] or it does not
[Apollos] You have been unable to provide any reason that You were saved and Jean is not
[Apollos] other than that God chose you
[Apollos] and with that, I must go to sleep as well
[Apollos] goodnight lovetruth
[lovetruth] Apollos, where does it say the Spirit goes where ti wishes?
[lovetruth] Good night Apollos


Thanks to Josh Whipps for editing this for content.

Here's a video I posted recently that can be a followup to this discussion.

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There's No Such Thing as an Open Minded Person.

Many who stand for the notion that God has objectively spoken and established moral laws against such things as lying, stealing, adultery, and, yes, homosexuality are often met with this command from the objector:

"Be open minded."

The following argument that I wish to set forth as being not only valid but also sound is that there is no such thing as an open minded person. Yes, this means that everyone is close minded including those who wish to express their intent for others to be open minded.

What makes one close minded? Well, in order to be close minded about a particular subject, one only needs to find a point at which they agree with one position because that agreement with one position will necessitate their disagreement of the opposite position. The person who believes that homosexuality is wrong is close minded toward the notion that homosexuality is right, but on the same token, the person who believes that homosexuality is right is close minded toward the notion that homosexuality is wrong. Do you see the dilemma? What's ironic, though, is that the person who is in favor of such things as homosexuality, fornication, blackmail, hypocrisy, etc, will very often use the argument "be open minded" to the person who is against those things even though this same individual is just as close minded as the one they are instructing. That's the dilemma in a nutshell.

To refute all aspects of this notion of "open mindedness", though, let's take the strongest argument that the person who opposes what I've stated could use. Let's say hypothetically that there is a person who is truly open minded. They truly have their mind open to any and everything that has come and will come their way. How could this person be close minded? First we must realize that there are two views here: a) open mindedness and b) close mindedness. This is where it may get a little tricky for some, but keep up with it, and you should get the gist of the argument.: If a person is truly open minded (postion a) ), they have closed their mind off to the possibility that close mindedness (position b) ) is a viable option therefore the hypothetical "open minded" person is completely close minded to a certain position and that being the opposite one. Hence we have yet another case of the self-refuting argument.

What's the point of this little endeavor? The next time someone tries to bully you with this notion of "being open minded" whether it be in regard to homosexuality, fornicating with them, being "Purpose Driven", and/or the practice of appealing to man's fallen nature to bring people into your local church-business, you can expose them of their hypocrisy and instruct them to repent accordingly.

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Lane's Blog on Facebook... Again(...and a thanks to JM Vergara.)

Since Ingrid reported people having trouble finding Slice using the Blog Application on Facebook, I decided to make her a page. This makes it significantly easier to find on that ever evolving site. After that I started wondering if anyone else may have the same trouble with my blog, so I made a page for here, too. You may now access it by clicking the picture below:



On another note, thanks to JM Vergara for installing on here the feature you will see if you click...

...that "Read More..." button you just clicked. Be sure to check out his great site which you can go to by clicking the following picture.:

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Why I Am Not a "Purpose Driven" Pastorwith guest Pastor Larry DeBruyn(Crosstalk America)

To continue listening to this program, click here.

From Crosstalkamerica.com:

"Purpose Driven" author Rick Warren has disseminated teachings that need to come under biblical scrutiny. As pastors are placed in a position of serious responsibility, it is critical that they protect their flocks by evaluating Warren's teachings in light of God's Word.

This Crosstalk featured just such a pastor. His name is Larry DeBruyn and he's the Senior Pastor of Franklin Road Baptist Church of Indianapolis, Indiana. He's also the author of the book, Church on the Rise: Why I Am Not a "Purpose-Driven" Pastor.

Pastor DeBruyn sensed the urgency for the book in November 2006 when he was teaching in Hungary and suffered a massive coronary. After getting back to the U.S. he decided to make it a priority to examine this subject and tell his congregation why he doesn't identify with the "purpose-driven" philosophy of local church ministry.

On this program you will hear discussion about ministry becoming industry, how human knowledge is in conflict with God's Word, the doctrinal vacuum of evangelicalism that's pointing back to medieval mysticism, and more.

This is a video I did for my job with Crosstalk America. You can find more clips at Crosstalk's Official Youtube Channel.

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To the Thoughtless,(C.H. Spurgeon)

Of course I cannot tell what has been the history of all of you, but I may be addressing someone this morning whose life of late has been a series of sorrows. You have plunged from one calamity to another. You have sailed over every known sea of affliction. You know what sickness means—there are in your body the scars of old diseases. You have known what perils mean on the waters and perils on land. Perhaps you have been brought down from competence to poverty. Perhaps you have been deserted, too, by those who should have comforted you—you know almost all the pangs which wring the human heart with anguish.

Don’t you know that all these are sent to wean you from the world? Will you still cling to it? All these are calls from Heaven, like the voice of hunger in the prodigal when he could not fill his belly with the husks and therefore said, “I will arise and go to my father.” Will you never say the same? How shall God afflict you, now? Is your wife dead? Would you like to lose your child? Is one child gone? Shall death take away the other? Shall the last darling be taken from you?

What stroke would touch your hard heart? Must the Lord strike again and again, and again and again before you will hear Him? If He is resolved to save you, depend upon it, He will not spare you! He will bring you, somehow or other, to Himself if He means to bless you. Be you not as the horse and the mule which have no understanding—whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle—but yield now to the afflictions you have already suffered, or else you will certainly enhance your guilt by despising the chastening of the Lord!

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This Kid is So Lame.

Let's say we're back in high school (if you're not now already). Let's say there is this kid who everyone knows craves attention and wants to be popular, but doesn't quite have that popularity and acceptance from his peers that he craves so. I'm sure we all have a mental picture at this point. Let's say that this person desires so much to be in the "in crowd" that he calls one of the people who he considers to be in it and asks them to call him back. Let's say that when the person in the "in crowd" does call back the kid, the kid goes around telling everyone that "so and so called HIM personally!" If you knew the truth about the reason why this person called him (returning a call) what would you think about this kid? Would you not think someone who called a certain person, had them return his phone call, then bragged to everyone that the person actually called them making it sound like the other person took the initiative was one of the lamest people you have ever met? I know I certainly would. If someone's desire to "be somebody" and "be accepted with a certain crowd" was that evident that they would be as lame to do such a thing, I think it would actually reveal how much of a nobody they actually are. With all that in mind, read this.


and after you read that, watch this:

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"Curse God and Die." is in the Bible.

A text out of context becomes a pretext leading to ridiculous interpretation. Many people use the Bible as if it is a fortune cookie - when you crack it open, it tells you something you should do no matter what the context is. If we were to open the Bible looking for some kind of instant-instruction, and take the verse in the title of this post (Job 2:9) out of context, we would be influenced to do what the text says, "Curse God and die." When we read the verse in context, though, we realize that it is actually a quote that Job's wife made to him when things started not to go favorably (in human terms) for him, and afterward he rebukes her. The following video expounds on the importance of reading the Bible, and everything for that matter, in the context of which it is written.

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Reflections: Family Friendly Christian Apparel and Giftware

My sister in the Lord, Carla Rolfe, runs an online store called Reflections where she carries merchandise from Alpha and Omega Ministries and Iron Sharpens Iron among other fine things. (I actually purchased a Radio Free Geneva t-shirt from there just prior to posting this.) Here's the link to the store (click the picture). You might even recognize a "model" on there or two. :)

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James White in Three Islam Debates in Southern California End of September 2008

James White is debating three times on Islam in a matter of two days. These debates will be hosted at two different locations. Here's the information on them. CRN highly recommends attending these if you can. A while back Dr. White changed his emphasis to Islam and even set out to learn Arabic. These debates should be quite helpful. Lord willing, I will be at the first one in Bellflower. (Click the link to zoom in.)




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Faith in God(J. Gresham Machen)

What is faith in God? J. Gresham Machen explained:

Faith in God (J. Gresham Machen) - Upload a Document to Scribd

Read this document on Scribd: Faith in God (J. Gresham Machen)

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