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      "...it's the result of a work, so that one may boast."
      (Is that Eph. 2:9?)

      Monday, September 29, 2008

      Two days ago, I arrived late into James White's chatroom where I stumbled upon a debate that was already in progress. Later, I got the record of the debate and read it through. I thought it would be helpful to post here because I believe it clearly shows the problem with the non-predestinarian view of salvation. To remain consistent in a non-predestinarian/free-will view, it never fails that one has to ultimately give credit to themselves in order to remain consistent with their belief. Read this little debate through, and notice how, when asked the deciding question directly, the free-will proponent had to dodge it relentlessly until he involuntarily has to concede the point at the end. I believe this is one of the clearest examples of why the predestinarian has no room to boast while the free-willer does.

      [Apollos] lovetruth: I assume from your comments that you don't believe that God elects those whom he will save, prior to time ?
      [lovetruth] There is no elect group in the bible [ordained to salvation)
      [Apollos] Lovetruth: are you a christian ?
      [lovetruth] Definitely a Christian: Jesus is my Lord and Saviour
      [Apollos] Ok
      [Apollos] lovetruth: and how are you saved as a Christian ?
      [lovetruth] Jesus pais for all by his blood
      [lovetruth] paid*
      [Apollos] but I mean
      [Apollos] what did you contribute ?
      [lovetruth] nothing I do can pay for my salvation: Jesus did it all
      [Apollos] lovetruth: do you have any friends or family members who are not saved ?
      [lovetruth] Apollos, Yes I have family members who do not know the Lord
      [Apollos] lovetruth: can you give me the first name of one of them who is not saved, for the sake of clarity ?
      [Apollos] lovetruth: can you tell me the first name of one of your unsaved family members ?
      [lovetruth] Apollos: Jean
      [Apollos] lovetruth: thanks. Now can you tell me why you are saved and Jean is not ?
      [lovetruth] I received Him as per John 1:12
      [Apollos] lovetruth: OK. But why are you saved, and Jean is not ?
      [lovetruth] Becos God has paid for it all
      [Apollos] I am not understanding
      [Apollos] If God paid for it all, then wouldn't Jean be saved as well ?
      [lovetruth] And I received the light as per John 1:9
      [Apollos] So why is Jean not saved ?
      [lovetruth] No, becos he has not receive Him yet
      [Apollos] Ok. So why have you received Jesus, and Jean has not ?
      [lovetruth] Note the cause and effect in John 1:12
      [lovetruth] the receiving comes before the authority to become children of God
      [lovetruth] Calvis believe the authrority came 1st
      [lovetruth] I am
      [Apollos] Lovetruth: I am asking you very simply, why have you recieved Jesus, but Jean has not ]?
      [lovetruth] :)
      [lovetruth] Becos the life in me from God enabled me to decide: to say yes
      [Apollos] Okl
      [lovetruth] and this life [extent) is in all as per the Ss
      [Apollos] So why did the life from God enable you to decide to say yes, but it did not do the same for Jean ?
      [lovetruth] See Eccl 12:7 [I think)
      [lovetruth] Becos he is not using it for that
      [Apollos] Why not ?
      [Apollos] Why are you using it for that, but Jean is not ?
      [lovetruth] As per Matthew 13:12
      [lovetruth] We all have
      [Apollos] ~nas Matt 13:12
      [@Gutenberg^] Matthew 13:12 "For whoever has, to him [more] shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. [NASB)
      [lovetruth] but I use my have
      [lovetruth] he does not
      [Apollos] So are you saying that Jean has not been given ?
      [lovetruth] I have just said he has and we all have
      [Apollos] So why are you using it and Jean is not ?
      [lovetruth] but he has not used his to have more
      [Apollos] that is what I am asking
      [Apollos] I understand that he hasn't
      [Apollos] the question is Why ?
      [lovetruth] No, he has
      [lovetruth] otherwise it could nto be taken from him
      [Apollos] Why are you using what you have been given, but Jean is not ?
      [lovetruth] becos I want righteousness
      [Apollos] Ok
      [Apollos] So you are morally superior to Jean ?
      [Apollos] that is why you are saved ?
      [lovetruth] becos we all can, but we don't all want to
      [lovetruth] nope not superior
      [Apollos] So you are saying that you were saved because you are morally superior ?
      [lovetruth] since we all have
      [Apollos] Well you say that you desire righteousness
      [Apollos] and he does not
      [Apollos] doesn't that make you morally superior ?
      [lovetruth] as testified by thefruit
      [Apollos] we need not go there
      [lovetruth] Jesus' righteousness makes me clean
      [Apollos] I am simply asking why you are saved
      [Apollos] and you are saying that it is because you desire righteousness
      [Apollos] and Jean does not
      [Apollos] so you are essentially morally superior to Jean
      [Apollos] that is why you are saved and Jean is not
      [Apollos] correct?
      [Apollos] Because you have the moral drive and he does not ?
      [lovetruth] Is desiring righteousness morally superior than desiring sin?
      [lovetruth] or just a choice
      [lovetruth] with no superior element in the making?
      [Apollos] what do you thinl ?
      [Apollos] is it better to desire sin or righteousness ?
      [Apollos] think
      [lovetruth] I think it is better, of course
      [lovetruth] Jean does not, at this time
      [Apollos] beacuse ?
      [Apollos] you are just morally ahead of him ?
      [Apollos] you are smarter than him ?
      [Apollos] why is it ?
      [lovetruth] neither
      [lovetruth] a choice is neutral
      [lovetruth] its effects are not
      [Apollos] I am trying to understand what it is about you that Christ chose
      [Apollos] that Jean doesn't have
      [Apollos] what is it that makes you a more desireable choice to Christ ?
      [lovetruth] that's the deal Christ desires all and paid for all
      [Apollos] So why isn't Jean saved ?
      [lovetruth] beocs he loves sin
      [Apollos] I understand that
      [Apollos] You have said that
      [lovetruth] as per John 3:18
      [lovetruth] is it what the bible says
      [Apollos] yes
      [lovetruth] Calvis say no it is God
      [Apollos] but the question again is
      [Apollos] Why do you not love sin, and Jean does ?
      [Apollos] I am just trying to get to the root
      [lovetruth] My flesh loves sin
      [Apollos] yes
      [lovetruth] but I do not want sin
      [Apollos] ok
      [Apollos] but Jean does
      [lovetruth] I want life
      [Apollos] and the question is why ?
      [Apollos] why the difference between you
      [Apollos] you don't seem to want to answer that
      [lovetruth] choice
      [Apollos] Ok so its not by grace
      [lovetruth] you don't seem to hear that
      [Apollos] its by choice
      [lovetruth] yes, Jesus' grace
      [Apollos] You told me earlier you were saved by grace
      [lovetruth] and payment
      [lovetruth] is what pays for all
      [Apollos] now you are saying that you are saved because you made a choice
      [Apollos] a choice that Jean did not make
      [Apollos] and I am trying to understand from you
      [Apollos] Why it is that you made that choice and Jean did not
      [lovetruth] I made choice that Jesus paid for by God's grace
      [Apollos] You keep saying the same thing
      [Apollos] without answering the question
      [Apollos] let me clarify
      [Apollos] I understand that
      [Apollos] 1) You chose Jesus and Jea did not
      [Apollos] 2) You love righteousness and Jean does not
      [lovetruth] Where does the bible say that God makes that decidion for me?
      [lovetruth] decision*
      [Apollos] 3) You want life, Jean does not
      [Apollos] the question is
      [Apollos] Why ?
      [Apollos] Why the diference
      [lovetruth] please answer my question
      [Apollos] I understand there is a difference, you have been very clear about that
      [Apollos] but what you have not answered
      [Apollos] is why the difference
      [Apollos] You indicated that you were more moral
      [Apollos] than Jean
      [lovetruth] No, you indoacted I was more moral
      [Apollos] Ok
      [Apollos] So please explain why the differences
      [lovetruth] I inidcated that the choice was neutral
      [lovetruth] its effects were not
      [Apollos] why the differences ?
      [Apollos] Why have you chosen a path, with all that entails
      [Apollos] that Jean has not
      [Apollos] Why have you made a decision that Jean has not ?
      [Apollos] with all that entails
      [lovetruth] Apllos: becos God saw the love I had for Him in my hear and I did not know it
      [lovetruth] heart*
      [lovetruth] So he set me up
      [lovetruth] to a call
      [Apollos] again Love truth
      [lovetruth] And I then prayed to Jesus
      [Apollos] your are going back to what is entailed
      [Apollos] You love God , Jean does not
      [Apollos] You prayed to Jesus, Jean did not
      [Apollos] WHY ?
      [lovetruth] I think [I know?) you misunderstand
      [Apollos] I don't misunderstand
      [Apollos] You are simply giving me a list of distinctions between a believer and an unbeliever
      [Apollos] I understand that these distinctions exist
      [Apollos] the question is Why you and not Jean ?
      [Apollos] Is it something that you conjured up within yourself that Jean did not ?
      [Apollos] something you did that made you more fitting to be saved than Jean
      [Apollos] what is it ?
      [lovetruth] Apollos, u misunderstand, as per Romans 8:27 I did not know what I wanted
      [lovetruth] But God saw I love him in my heart of hearts
      [lovetruth] ansd set me up to hear about Jesus as a consequence
      [lovetruth] that is the conditional predestination Paul teaches
      [Apollos] I see
      [Apollos] so you had love for God in your heart, without knowing it
      [Apollos] kind of an involuntary love
      [Apollos] and Jean didn't have that involuntary love
      [Apollos] So where did this involuntary love come from
      [lovetruth] It is as per John 1:12 not a wholly conscious deal
      [Apollos] since it did not originate with you ?
      [lovetruth] as per JOhn 3:8
      [lovetruth] being obrn of the SPirt is not a wholly conscious evetm
      [Apollos] So you were born of the Spirit without knowing it ?
      [lovetruth] becos it is like the wind Jesus aid
      [Apollos] ok
      [Apollos] I agree
      [lovetruth] remember?
      [Apollos] So really
      [Apollos] The Spirit chose you
      [Apollos] and you did not even know it
      [lovetruth] God chose no one to be lost, so no
      [Apollos] So
      [Apollos] The Spirit of God chose you
      [Apollos] But did not choose Jean
      [Apollos] at least not yet
      [Apollos] Which is why you are saved now
      [Apollos] and he is not
      [Apollos] right ?
      [lovetruth] if u read me, u would know the answer
      [Apollos] I just read you
      [lovetruth] but u are fixed in your ways
      [Apollos] You have no response
      [lovetruth] and carry on irrespective
      [Apollos] as to why you are saved and Jean is not
      [Apollos] you can name off a dozen difference
      [Apollos] but the only answer you have
      [Apollos] is actually biblical
      [Apollos] the Spirit goes where it pleases
      [Apollos] and the Spirit regenerated your heart
      [lovetruth] I choose for life becos God enalbes us all to choose
      [lovetruth] the choice is neutral
      [lovetruth] I have said that
      [Apollos] but did not regenerate Genes
      [Apollos] Jeans
      [lovetruth] now please read me
      [Apollos] I have been reading you
      [lovetruth] but not hearing
      [Apollos] you are now going back on what you said about the passage in John 3
      [Apollos] Either the Spirit goes where it wishes
      [Apollos] or it does not
      [Apollos] You have been unable to provide any reason that You were saved and Jean is not
      [Apollos] other than that God chose you
      [Apollos] and with that, I must go to sleep as well
      [Apollos] goodnight lovetruth
      [lovetruth] Apollos, where does it say the Spirit goes where ti wishes?
      [lovetruth] Good night Apollos

      Thanks to Josh Whipps for editing this for content.

      Here's a video I posted recently that can be a followup to this discussion.


      Lockheed said...

      I tried to go down this road with LT but there was too much other stuff going on in the channel. I'm glad Apollos was able to point this out so clearly. If/when LT comes back into #pros we need to simply pick up where Apollos left off and continue to press this.

      Lane Chaplin said...

      I agree.

      JM Vergara said...

      Thanks for sharing this, Lane.

      Imma try to hang around the channel too.:)

      RazorsKiss said...

      I think it might be very useful to post debates like this for others as much as possible.

      I'm not bad at formatting and editing for irrelevancy, so any I have, I'll toss up on my blog, and make a debates section.

      I'll keep a lookout for others.

      Anonymous said...

      How could somebody possibly boast about believing something was done on their behalf, which they didn't deserve?

      On the flip side, could not someone boast that God chose them and not the other lost fella?

      Either way you turn it, we could (wrongly) boast, but not before God.

      There is far, far, FAR more emphasis in God's word on reaching out, and sharing the cross of Christ to a lost world than teaching on predestination. Especially considering our limited, finite minds.

      I stand with our Apostle Paul, so others can know...

      Galatians 6:14 -- But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ

      Love in Christ

      Lockheed said...

      "could not someone boast that God chose them and not the other lost fella"

      No, that's the whole point. God's choice is not based on anything in the person, they're both equally sinners in God's eyes.

      Turn this around, in lovetruth's (and indeed most Arminian-esque) view, the reason they were saved and not the "other lost fella" is cause they were either 1) smarter (and understood the Gospel's implications) 2) more Spiritual (and thus were more sensitive to the Gospel's call) or 3) more holy (they were less of a sinner and so they were given more opportunity.)

      So anonymous... which do you believe?

      See, the Bible presents the case that we're all alike under wrath because of sin. (Eph 2:1) None of us deserves saving. Thus when God saves ANY of us, it is solely by grace... it is unmerited, unearned.

      You state: "There is far, far, FAR more emphasis in God's word on reaching out, and sharing the cross of Christ to a lost world than teaching on predestination." I would generally agree, but predestination and evangelism are both taught in the pages of Scripture.

      This is why the Bible tells us that "faith comes by hearing... the word of Christ". That is, God's plan of salvation via predestination is expressed in some hearing the preached Word of God, becoming alive in Christ supernaturally and responding to the Gospel.

      Thus you'll find that Calvinists throughout history have been champions of evangelism, take Whitefield, Spurgeon and others. Calvinism in no way denigrates evangelism but rather promotes it because it teaches that evangelism is the way (the only way) God's Word is preached and hearts changed.

      Anonymous said...

      I used to not be a Baptist Christian who believed predestination was based on God's foreknowledge of what I would choose. I remember talking with Calvinists and being honest enough to admit that I took credit for my belief in Christ. I believed God got all the credit for my actual forgiveness and cleansing from sin, but I figured I got credit for the belief part. Kind of like how I get credit for driving my car to an automatic car wash but they get credit for the actual cleaning. It wasn't until many years later that I realized "there are none that do good" and that dead men don't drive cars to car washes. I believe because He gave me belief, and He keeps me believing or I would have fallen away by now!

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